By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:41 pm:

In the late seventies, there was much doom and gloom on the Northern Soul Scene regarding it's future.

After a decade which saw astonishing growth, the fans were getting married and settling down. Surely the end was nigh.

After a brief lull, this was of course unfounded.

To see how the scene survives in 2002, Harry Dhesi and myself made the 650 mile round trip at the weekend to the Togetherness All Nighter in Stoke-on-Trent. For us it's a 36 hour sleepless trip.

The Nighter began at 10pm and was scheduled to close at 7am. Beforehand there was a large gathering in the pub just along the road from 8pm.

So you're talking 11 hours of non-stop Soul Music. Interestingly the emphasis is on records which were discovered and played thirty years ago at venues like The Wheel, The Torch, Blackpool Mecca etc etc. There is also a small room provided for lovers of seventies Soul, with the emphasis, as usual, on rarity.

The attendance on the evening must have been well over 1,200, which is amazing when you take into account that there was another All-Nighter on at the same time, a mere twenty miles away in Bretby.

It's worth noting too that there were many hundreds in attendance who were in their twenties and thirties. Some regulars also confirmed that many old friends continue to return to the scene after many years absence.

The floor was heaving all night as we danced to Larry Williams & Johnny Watson, The Charades, The Del Larks, Jimmy Mack, Willie Kendricks, The Salvadors.... It really is a sight to behold.

Indeed, there were many occasions during the evening when I wished that our American friends were there to witness the incredible camaraderie that exists on the dance floor. This is what makes the scene so special.

When the last record was playing and 200 hardy souls were dancing and clapping to the awesome Ruby Andrews and "Just Loving You", it was 7.10am and daylight was streaming through the windows onto the dance floor.

So what, in my opinion, does the future hold now?

Undoubtedly the scene is contagious because it is based on happy-go-lucky music and after more than 30 years there is firm evidence that it continues to attract new blood.

I'm therefore going to stick my neck out and say that we could be looking at something which will never die.

Now wouldn't that be something!

By MEL&THENSOME (195.219.7.108 - 195.219.7.108) on Tuesday, July 30, 2002 - 07:54 pm:

DAVID,SURELY,(GOD FORBID)THIS SCENE WILL NEVER DIE,ALTHOUGH IT DID COME PRETTY CLOSE IN THE 1980S.MEL(ANDTHENSOME)

By Carl Dixon (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 08:58 am:

Sounds like you had a good time David. I am sure it will be around for many years to come. Hopefully I will be too!

By M.McLeanTech (66.218.40.143 - 66.218.40.143) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 10:29 am:

David,

When I walked into Hitsville in January, 1961, got hired, and went to work, I was utterly blown away by the fantastic music that was happening all around me.

Your description of this wonderful scene that you attended, with all those names that I never heard of (Larry Williams and Johnny Watson - You might as well be saying Bwopt Stegmeir and Velnar Scorch, as far as I am concerned.), hit a resonance in me that made me think of how I felt in those first few monthes at Hitsville, when Raynoma Gordy was working with Berry to build the company, Robert Bateman was the superman recording engineer/producer, and tunes like Barrett Strong's "Money" had just been released just a few months ago.

I felt such a strong emotional response that I found myself day dreaming about going to your turf in the U.K. for the sole (no pun intended) purpose of checking out that kind of scene.

The only thing that has happened to me within the last year that rivals the impact of your posting in it's ability to stir up this sort of feeling in me, was when a friend loaned me a two CD collection of John Lee Hooker songs. The first song was "Teaching The Blues."

When I listened to this cut, I jumped right out of my chair and bellowed: "At last! At last! At last! I have finally found the root of all that wonderful stuff that was going on all around me in those wonderful early days at Hitsville!"

It must be wonderful to have had a big enough innoculation of this sort of feeling to have it inspire you to press as far as you have to find that holy grail of soul. Alas: The beginning of the end for me was when Andre Williams left Motown. The stake through my heart touched my chest when Robert Bateman left, and the Satintones dropped out of the picture.

I really felt like I had been taken aboard a space ship from the film "Mars Attacks" and been given a musical lobotomy, when the big string of slick Supremes hits began cranking out under Holland-Dosier-Holland. The grand, classic quality of a 1932 Cadillac V-16 had been replaced by the huge, commercial, slick fins of a 1959 Cadillac Eldorado.

The final wrenching death was when the likes of Popcorn Wylie, Mary Wells, George Fowler, and many others, faided from the scene. The innocent fun to trying to make a nice tune had evolved into the hard push to get the money. Soulful had become Slick, for me. That was where it ended for me.

But for you, the fire burns bright and consumes you. How lucky you are. Still, it is very clear from your writing (above: the one that I am commenting on is the one that I mean) that you are deeply troubled about the possibility that something could go wrong for you like went wrong for me. The "scene" could go up in smoke.

I am glad that you feel positive. There is nothing I hate more then a negative, cynical, jaded, grumbler who constantly makes satirical remarks intended to cast a negative light on things, just so he can stick his nose up.

I am going to join with Ed Wolfrum and pray, to ask the Lord to steer the winds of change clear of you so that you will not suffer the same fate that I did, when I had the musical caviar turn into volcanic ash in my mouth, and then, in turn, turn into a MacDonalds Big Mac.

Thank goodness that I had Beethoven and Vaughn Williams to fall back on!

Thank you David, for a most provocative posting.

Mike McLean

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 02:53 pm:

The Northern Soul scene in London seems to be getting more and more popular. There are clubs all over the place. I wonder if anything like this would happen in the US. I can image a club somewhere in New York doing it. I am sure it would be popular. I think Felix Hernandez does something like it.

By david, glasgow, scotland (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 06:59 pm:

Thanks Mike

I often wonder about the deeper roots of Motown.

Believe it or not I haven't heard much from John Lee Hooker but that must change.

Berry was raised off Hastings Street so it's obvious that he was well aware of JLH's music.

I'm glad my Northern Soul piece stirred you, I wish you could see it in action.

The longevity of the scene speaks for itself.

David

By Mark Speck (65.56.5.87 - 65.56.5.87) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 11:05 pm:

Carl, there's a great deal of Northern soul activity here in the States and up in Canada.

Mike Kenyon (all-around great guy), his buddy Dave Thomas, and the United Soul Club of America have frequent shows in the LA area, as does the 45 club. They both have sites that you can check out (I'll supply the links later).

Grover Smith and Chris Bergin hold shows in the Cincinnati area. I have to e-mail Grover to find out when the next one will be held.

There are probably a few guys in the New York area who have shows. I know "Mr. Fine Wine" from WFMU plays rare soul at a few clubs in the area.
Greg Tormo may have a few DJ gigs around there as well--I'll have to ask him.

There's a bunch in Chicago that have Northern soul DJ gigs. I met them in Toronto two years ago, but didn't get any further info.

Toronto also had a great little scene going, but I don't think they've done much since the weekender two years ago (which yours truly attended and enjoyed!). The do's there are held by the Soul Club, a delightful bunch of UK expatriates: Alun Bell, Kevin Cox, Mick Taylor, Les, and two others whose names escape me. They also have a very nice web site.

I would LOVE to get something together here in Cleveland--Lord knows I can think of enough possible venues to hold a show!!

Best,

Mark

By Ade (193.129.220.205 - 193.129.220.205) on Thursday, August 01, 2002 - 11:10 pm:

David

I nearly went to Stoke myself but I was away in Holland (2nd year I've missed the oldies allnighter! Blast!) Glad to hear you enjoyed it, its a great venue and as you say, the punters add that special ingredient with their love of the music and their passion for the scene. Let me know when you're heading down the road the next time and I'll join you! (I'm still hankering for that battered poster in your loft as well!!!!!)

As for the future of the scene, the resurgence in popularity isn't just the "kids have grown up now" crowd in their 40's and 50's (although I admire them for their knowledge and enthusiasm - and you know me and my listening skills!!) but theres also a growing contingent of 20's and early 30's coming through. Being the ultimate underground scene, northern soul will always have a certain "coolness" about it which is really appealing to some, then they get bitten by the quality of the sounds and the emotion that is poured into the majority of songs that fall under Northern soul's umbrella.

You'll also see a number of celebrities and pop stars namechecking Northern soul in interviews (Noel Gallagher from Oasis was wearing a "The Torch, Keep the faith" T-shirt the last time he was on top of the pops!) which will stir interest in their fans.

A friend of mine (26) came to the Woodside a few months back and, having been a staunch "modern dance music" fan all his life, commented that with the same drugs (controversial bit!) and the same club set up (lights, PA, publicity etc) the majority of young club goers would love Northern soul music just as much (I said MORE!) as their "trance", "Garage" or whatever marketing term is being used this week....

The music will live on forever, and for that reason the Northern soul scene will outlive us all....to coin a phrase, it keeps on burning!

I never thought my social life would revolve around music that was made before I was born and travelling hundreds of miles to venues to hear that music with likeminded soul(ie)s who on the whole are 15 yrs older than me, but once you're bitten! You won't hear me complaining...

but you will see me dancing!

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.57.134 - 213.122.57.134) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 08:09 am:

Thanks Ade and Mark.

Mark, I think Santa Monica was the location of a number of Nighters.

There is also a thriving scene in Australia and if I remember I will upload some of their ads.

By Carl Dixon (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 08:12 am:

Mark - get cracking in Cleveland then!! Have a word with that Johny Holiday guy off WHK color channel 40! He might give you a plug, if he is still around. I wonder if the DJ's there check out web pages like this and others from the UK and see what is being played? Like Ade says above, it has become a very serious part of peoples lives. I always knew I would stick by my convictions with this music, but never realised I would be buying new old stuff in 2002 and going to clubs to witness what goes on. Ade - I quote you now, with respect to that Jackie Wilson track we heard at the Metropolitan ( remind me what it was if you can remember)! My friends at work were so intrigued by that nights events , we nearly got arround to organising a night out together to a Northern Soul gig, here in London.

By david, glasgow, scotland (213.122.57.134 - 213.122.57.134) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 08:37 am:

In case Ade disappears for a while again the JW track is probably "Because of you".

Fantastic record.

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Friday, August 02, 2002 - 09:49 am:

I must check it out - thanks David. I also need 'Nothing but blue Skys' too. Time for a purchase I think.

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.165 - 195.92.168.165) on Saturday, August 03, 2002 - 05:04 pm:

Can I add a bit of a negative thought to this thread re the US side of the Northern Scene? A couple of years ago I met up with Greg Tormo in New Jersey. He was and still is putting on Northern nights in NYC but they were only modestly popular, he puts a lot of time and effort into it. I hope it picks up. On to the negative bit - I witnessed Greg getting a bit of a frosty reception at a Record Show we went to, and a couple of dealers elsewhere were very reluctant about him - why? Because he knows about Northern Soul and the $$$$$ that some discs bring. One dealer casually quoted that an English guy had recently paid $2400 for Bernie Williams Ever Again on Bell. Did he think that was the norm?? I have been refused to be served for three years running in Bridge Records in Philly - the owner won't let me in the shop because of my English accent. Clifton Records NJ was the same. It wasn't until I showed them my wants list that contained a lot of Group / Doo Wop sides and also reminded him that I used to buy Bim Bam Boom etc from him at the time, that he `allowed` me to buy records, but I was forbidden to listen to them on a burger. My opinion is that apart from the $$$$ side of things, they (`they` being a lot of the whites on the collecting/selling scene) don't like the idea that A/ They have allowed an entire aspect of their country's culture ie Black Soul / R&B records from the 60's, to be whisked away to Britain and to some extent Japan. and B/ they just can't stomach English folk knowing more than them about it. Lets say that we hadn't looked after the Mersey Beat scene in the 60's and the Mexicans had soaked it all up, how receptive would we be to them i wonder?
One GREAT thing about this site is that records are NOT traded on it and subsequently only well intentioned folk come on it, all of the US based contributers don't suffer from the afore mentioned `anti English` problem. They all seem to welcome and share knowledge. The record trading scene can throw up some greedy people, plenty of English collectors have `persuaded` our Detroit heroes to part with rare 45s and then gone on to sell them for big money. Shame on you.
Keep the site dealer free!! Keith

By Mark Speck (65.56.222.198 - 65.56.222.198) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 12:01 am:

Johnny Holliday has been gone from the Cleveland radio scene for YEARS, Carl! WELW-AM recently flew him into town to host a doo-wop concert at Severance Hall.

Keith--sorry to hear about your bad experience with dealers. I didn't realize that such prejudice exists.

Two friends of mine who are English and collect Northern were in town today to check out the National Record Show. Bob Hall, who now lives nearby in Akron, and I met up--he found a few things, most impressively a WD of the great Cavaliers' double-sider on RCA. I also ran into Mick from the Toronto bunch--the good news is they'll be reactivating the shows there in October at a new venue. Bad news--a couple of them broke free from the group and aren't participating.

Please come to Cleveland someday if you can. I have shown a couple of Brits around and where to buy records and they've had absolutely no trouble.

Best,

Mark

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.194.12 - 195.92.194.12) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 09:50 am:

Mark Thanks for the offer, I will take you up on that one day. Jim Hunt from New Jersey, co author of `Soul Harmony Singles`, is a small dealer and a really nice guy, as is Eddie Barnett in Boston. I have also met lots of others who have been good, once they know you love the music rather than the egotistical aspect of collecting they do open up. Keith

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 01:19 pm:

Keith,

I agree with you completely about avoiding
trading records on this site - personally I'm
happy having a track on CD as I don't really care about having a first pressing or whatever. I'm
interested from a discographical / historical point of view but for lots of reasons, money
being not the least of them, I was never that
concerned with the actual physical disc - it's the
music I love.

I joined another well-known soul site about six
months ago and left it in disgust after a week as
every second post seemed to be of the " I've got
a white demo of ... how much is is worth ?"
variety. I'm not interested in contributing to a site that seems more concerned with money than
music and God willing this forum will never get
involved in that aspect.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 02:55 pm:

Don't worry Davie. It won't.

By MEL&THEN SOME (195.219.7.85 - 195.219.7.85) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 07:04 pm:

FAR TOO MANY EXCELLENT TRACKS ARE(AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN)IGNORED BY SO CALLED,COLLECTORS ON THE SCENE.HOW SOMEONE CAN IGNORE A SOUND,JUST BECAUSE OF SOMEONE ELSES REMARKS,AND PRICE VALUATIONS HAS ALWAYS BAFFLED ME.IVE HEARD AND SEEN A LOT OF C/UPS,ETC,OVER THE YEARS,SOME TOTAL GARBAGE AT TIMES.BUT TO ME,ITS WHATS IN THE GROOVE,THAT COUNTS.MEL(ANDTHENSOME)

By Mark Speck (65.57.23.67 - 65.57.23.67) on Sunday, August 04, 2002 - 08:06 pm:

It gets a little idiotic sometimes. There are some records selling for a ton of money that are absolute crap, and there are quite a few common records that are simply brilliant that get ignored because they can be found so easily. That's probably the only real beef I have with the Northern scene, but from a lot of things I've read, it's been going on for years.

Best,

Mark

By Keith Rylatt (195.92.168.163 - 195.92.168.163) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 10:16 am:

Mark & Davie Can I nominate Stevie Wonder's version of `I want my baby back` and `Love a go go` from the Uptight LP as being common but GREAT tracks. keith

By Davie Gordon (213.251.162.249 - 213.251.162.249) on Monday, August 05, 2002 - 12:42 pm:

Hi Keith,

Agreed - great tracks.

On another forum there was a post about picking up
Melvin Davis' "I'm Worried" in a £1 box and being
delighted on hearing this absolute gem. That
warms my heart far more than hearing about "Oh
I paid £400 for it" for some over-rated average
disc.

As I'm sure everyone knows the cost of a record has very rarely anything to do with how good it is
- OK there are obvious exceptions - but I'm
delighted that everyone can find Frank Wilson's
"Do I Love You" on CD for a reasonable price
and do what Frank intended when he made the damn record - give people's ears, feet and souls
something they'll love.

Can I start a new topic - what great records
have you found in cheapo bins and how much did
you pay for them ?

I got my Stateside copy of Darrell Banks' immortal
"Open The Door To Your Heart" for 2/6 ( that's
12.5 P for you younger folks, 25 cents for our
US friends) - I don't think I've ever obtained
so much enjoyment for so little money.

OK, let's hear about your finds ...

By Mark Speck (65.57.23.189 - 65.57.23.189) on Tuesday, August 06, 2002 - 04:13 am:

Well, since this forum is entitled Soulful DETROIT...

It would have to be over 10 years ago, and I wasn't really collecting Northern at the time, but I was flipping through boxes at a nearby record store when I came across a 45 on Motown by Billy Eckstine. Being a fan of both Motown and "Mr. B", I paid 75 cents for it. I didn't play it immediately though.

When I got involved in the Northern scene, that's when I noticed this record being mentioned all over the place. I finally gave it a spin and it is truly amazing. You guessed it..."I Wonder Why (Nobody Loves Me)".

I could go on about stuff I've found cheap and traded off for items of considerably less value.

Best,

Mark

By Ian W (213.122.57.43 - 213.122.57.43) on Thursday, August 08, 2002 - 10:44 pm:

My only real bargain was a Dena Barnes demo. It was on sale at Rod Shards shop in Manchester. It is cracked from the inside to the outside but plays well, nevertheless! Rod sold it to me for the bargain price of £1. Thanks Rod!

By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 03:33 am:

I'm an American living in a geograpically-isolated area (South Florida) which is now 65 percent Hispanic. The odds of my setting up a Northern Soul night here are about as good as Manchester getting a Major League Baseball team.

Most of the soul buyers here pick up what they see on want lists. Yes, it is "want lists" that fuel the fire. Most of them wouldn't know the difference between a sweet soul record and an out-and-out stormer. In other words, they DON'T FEEL ANYTHING IN THEIR SOUL! I've always picked up records that I like, and it turns out some of them are desirable, while others are worth only a quid or two. I like the cheapies too, and in some cases my favorite tracks by an act might not be the dance floor favorite. (Right now I'm listening to Laura Lee's "Wedlock Is A Padlock" and I want to get up and dance!... but you'll never hear THAT at a nighter, I bet...)

When I've d.j.'d on the radio, I've always tried to mix in a variety of sounds -- from deepies to stormers to funk to mid-tempo -- whatever moves and grooves me, whether it's a Jerry Butler cheapie, or a Magic City rarity!

Sometimes I find some dodgy Northern sounds for cheap, and if they don't move me at all, of course I sell or trade them. I found Jay Traynor's "Up and Over" in a $1 box in Ft. Lauderdale, and was more than happy to unload that one (for quite a bit more than I paid). But there are others -- Keni Lewis on Buddah, for example -- that I wouldn't sell for any price.

My ultimate Northern soul record is "What Kind Of Lady" by Dee Dee Sharp. To me, it's total perfection. I don't care that it's not a mega-rarity -- it would lead off any set that I do! That intro would get me on the dance floor any time! And yes, it can occasionally be found on web sites for a tenner or less, but to me... it's priceless!

Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com

By john lester (213.1.131.183 - 213.1.131.183) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:09 am:

Jeff

What a fab song is Wedlock as a Padlock..try also Crumbs Off The Table (all versions of it)

By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 05:23 am:

Ooh yes... I've been in a Hot Wax/Invictus mood today... I played the 8th Day album three times! "I Can't Fool Myself", "I've Come To Save You" -- great songs!!!

Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com

By Carl Dixon London (62.31.32.130 - 62.31.32.130) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:26 am:

Jeff - I like that Dee Dee Sharp track too. I recently aquired a cd with it on. I needed to hear 'Prove yourself a lady' and was pleased they both accompanied each other on the cd. I do like the bass line on 'What kind of lady' though. It props the song up. I like that old Philly/Neptune sound, especially 'One night affair' and even 'Conquer the world togther'. Good stuff.

Bargains, well, that's another story.
Girls are out to get you/Fascinations 3 for a £1.00 on Mojo. I bought 9 and sold them in a disco for £1 each.

All my Neptune stuff, around 10/20p each.
I got love/Viola Wills 30p
I'll do anything/Doris Troy on Mojo 30p

This is going back a bit, but I had never heard the tracks til I got home. It was a magic time.

By David Meikle (213.122.113.156 - 213.122.113.156) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 07:32 am:

Jeff

Dee Dee Sharp was played at the nighter which started this thread off.

Thanks for your insight into collecting in Florida.

Whatever happened to the TK set up? Was that in Hialeah?

By Flynny (213.122.202.157 - 213.122.202.157) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 12:30 pm:

If folk are interested in chatting about all things Northern Soul, then you're more than welcome to join the *soul-talk* internet group...similar to this forum, but not so intense on the Detroit releases! ;-)
http://www.capitolsoulclub.homestead.com/soultalk.html

By recordboyusa (208.61.5.193 - 208.61.5.193) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 06:06 pm:

Carl,
"Conquer The World Together" is another favorite of mine! Kind of the Philly version of Marvin & Tammi??

David M.,
I'm glad to hear "What Kind Of Lady" got played again. Have you noticed how the horns at the beginning are playing sort of a variation of "A Taste Of Honey"? That's a record that runs on all cylinders! And Dee Dee sings her a$$ off!!

TK went bankrupt in 1981 after a series of mistakes within the company, and the falling out of favor of disco within the music industry. There was a very suspicious fire shortly after. Henry Stone hooked up with Morris Levy with Sunnyview Records, before starting his own company, Hot Productions. Last year his partners in Hot "conspired" to oust him from the company, so now he's in court suing them. In the meantime he's issued a 2-CD set, "The Henry Stone Story", which unfortunately doesn't include the Twans, Purple Mundi, or "I Can't Speak"!

His vice president at TK, Steve Alaimo, is still with Vision Records in Miami, and last year performed his hit "Everyday I Have To Cry" at the opening of a Florida music exhibit. Betty Wright and Sam Moore were among the other performers!

I agree with Flynny about soul-talk. It's a great place to learn about obscure labels, artists, etc., and what records are being played in the clubs. I can definitely recommend it.

Jeff Lemlich
http://www.limestonerecords.com

By David Meikle (62.252.128.6 - 62.252.128.6) on Friday, August 09, 2002 - 08:11 pm:

Thanks Jeff.