By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 10:19 am:

I am curious if anyone knows of a complete or partial session list for hitsville during the golden era. I know session dates have appeared on certain reissue CD's over the years (like cellarful of motown). But does anyone out there have a sort of database on this??
I appreciate this may be asking a lot,and i appear to be getting obsessed with detail,but i am sure there are other forum regulars who would like to have this sort of info.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 12:06 pm:

Oh, yes - you'll find that database on the top shelf, just between the Holy Grail and the Elixir of Life.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 12:18 pm:

I was told it's in the lost city of atlantis!!

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 12:40 pm:

I admit to being over-optimistic on this one, but surely, the fact that session dates are now put on some CD's indicates that someone,somewhere, knows more about this subject than what we are led to believe.
It is one of the more frustrating aspects of motown,that everything still seems shrouded in secrecy compared to other music of the era. I reckon this secrecy is no longer doing anyone any favours.
I can appreciate the fact that some of the records have got lost over a space of time ,but surely some form of backup documentation was kept even in pre PC days.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 02:59 pm:

I think you better re-read Ritchie's reply Soulboy. However, knowing how this forum has amazed me in the past, I suppose anything is possible.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 03:54 pm:

Is this going to go down in history as one of the great mysteries of the 20th century along with UFOs, Area51 and who shot JFK??

THE KING OF WISHFUL THINKING.

By biggray1 (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 04:24 pm:

Elixir of life first!then Detriot ear candy forever!!wow what away to live.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 05:36 pm:

Seriously, though - I don't think it's a matter of "secrecy" as regards the session files. It's purely down to choice. Motown (or any other comapny for that matter) are under no obligation to publish the information. Despite the fact that many, many people would dearly LOVE to explore the files, there is no "need to know" argument in this particular case. We already benefit when dates can be quoted to add extra interest to new issues of vintage material, so the facts themselves are not being jealously guarded.

From a practical point of view, publishing complete details of every Motown session - whether it led to a release or not - would be a mammoth undertaking, for a return which would probably not justify the time and expense of collating all the data for publication. The result would be a very large and very expensive book, (database or whatever) - with probably a limited appeal in the market-place.

Also, I suspect that part of the reasoning behind the "secrecy" is to avoid the deluge of requests and complaints that would undoubtedly follow: "why haven't you released xxxx?" or "is take five the same version that was issued in Thailand-only in 1967?"

I personally could spend days browsing, as could most folks here, no doubt. In the real world, however, I suspect that Detroit's answer to the Arc of the Covenant will remain under lock and key for considerably longer.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 06:32 pm:

Ritchie

Thanks for helping me to see things in a more realistic way!
In the meantine i will settle for any information on issued CD's that quote the session dates instead.

By biggray1 (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 06:41 pm:

Ditto.

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:45 pm:

Put it in perspective guys. On any given day there could be 2 or 3 rhythym dates, 1 or 2 sweetening sessions, possibly a background session or two and throw in a misc. for good measure. Not to mention all the mixing going on.....You guys do the math.

By nikki (24.46.200.124 - 24.46.200.124) on Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 11:57 pm:

A big problem with many of the CDs of 50s and 60s soul, R&B, and doowop music today - no session notes, dates, and/or original label information given. Why? Many are "bootleg" CDs, and the people putting them out either don't know the information, or are too lazy to research it! I find this a big problem in my collecting, as I like to know some information about the track, without having to go thru a dozen different publications to (possibly) find it!! As a co-host of an internet radio show (Harmony Train), it is very time consuming to have to try to research each and every track in order to offer our listeners some history on what we are playing! Of course there are a number of "legit" ones, such as the CDs put out by Ace, which have wonderful liner notes, pictures, and other neat information on the written inserts. Anyway, this is just my opinion. Thank you.
Nikki
http://www.harmonytrain.com

By Vickie (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 12:27 am:

If I can just add a little to this, I have found in doing my research for this book that people who WERE there didn't remember years and dates, so if someone didn't log it, keep it, file it, whatever it's lost. I have asked questions of prominent people about sessions and dates that they worked on and they had no clue, they just knew they did it, which goes with what Ralph said, it was a busy, busy time....I use to read how busy people were during that time, now I am hearing it first hand, it was...like a fast paced machine.

Vickie

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 02:07 am:

I guess I should add that I was talking in terms of Motown. Meanwhile Detroit was in high gear everywhere else also.
Even looking back on the Tera Shirma days and what was going on there when things were going strong and then realize United Sound, Motown, Golden World and everyone in between was producing music. That is a hell of a lot of sessions to try and account for.

By Gary Rosen (12.234.95.0 - 12.234.95.0) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 05:58 am:

Keep in mind also that pop/rock music of the '50s and early '60s was considered disposable and not, well, very "important". NOBODY thought that anyone was going to care about details of recording sessions 30-40 years down the road (yes it has been that long now). Motown began in that era and B. Gordy seems to have kept that mindset at least until the late '60s despite all the wonderful music being made under his direction. This also explains the lack of info on session musicians - the average fan just didn't care back then.

Things changed in the mid-60s when the music got more serious (whether it got better is another question). The Beatles contributed importantly to the change since they were such an explosive media phenomenon their every move was covered in great detail. Now average fans *were* talking about sessions, musicians and other stuff that was formerly relegated to trivia. Motown was a few years behind the curve on this.

- Gary Rosen

By John Lester (213.1.128.62 - 213.1.128.62) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 06:24 am:

Ralph

Can you recall who was keeping check on all the Hitsville Sessions....Was it Evonne, Fran Heard, Faye Janet Hale, Billy Jean Brown......?

Of course, we do know Martha Reeves was there, keeping good records!!

Ann Dozier told me she worked in the studio too...

By Ralph (209.240.222.130 - 209.240.222.130) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 01:37 pm:

John,
All sessions had to be approved through the A&R department. That would be Betty Osha.
Before Betty, it was Eddie Holland. Fran and Yvonne were in the tape library. Billie Jean was running Quality Control.I don't remember exactly what Faye was responsible for.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 02:04 pm:

I Think i can now understand why i was a bit ignorant about this topic. Today we live in an age of 100% traceability whether we talk about records, automobiles,or just about any product.
In them days i guess the emphasis was on about gettin the product out through the door. paperwork and records did not have the same profile as they do today,it is indicative of how western culture has changed in the space of 30-40 years.
However if you know of any issued CD's that DO have the session dates on please let me know.

By Vickie (64.12.97.11 - 64.12.97.11) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 04:42 pm:

Soulboy,
This was a great thread to start, informative for all of us..
Once again...The Forum proved to be a great history teacher..

Vickie

By HW (12.110.192.128 - 12.110.192.128) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 04:51 pm:

Friends,

As it states in the box sets that have been issued since 1992, Motown kept a record of its recordings in the basement studio of 2648 West Grand Boulevard in Detroit. The log was begun in the spring/summer of 1961 to keep track of the exploding studio schedule. It continued in detail through the tail-off period circa 1972-73. Detailed recording information has been included in those box sets, several raritites collections and the Marvin Gaye deluxe editions.

We believe the persons who kept them include the women mentioned above as well as Georgia Ward, who was also an A&R assistant, beginning in 1966.

These logs show song titles, artists and producer codes. They do not list engineers or musicians.

These logs are in a climate-controlled and secure environment. There is backup for the data as well. They were discovered by Cary Mansfield and myself many years ago in an old office at Motown in LA. We are thankful they survived.

In anticipation of the various responses, please understand I cannot join the ensuing debate on what to do next. I'll be very happy to read.

By Greg (192.147.58.6 - 192.147.58.6) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 05:06 pm:

I met Georgia Ward a few years back when a friend of mine was working at Motown in Los Angeles. She was in charge of the tape vaults when I met her. A very sweet woman. I asked her about Sam Ward, and she replied that he was her cousin. Don't know if she's still at Motown, since it's been a few years now since my friend worked there.

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 06:01 pm:

HW

We too are thankful they survived. Keep 'em safe!

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 06:56 pm:

Thank you Harry,
Maybe there is hope after all!
It took some courage for me to start this controversial topic off.It would seem i am NOT the only one with an interest.

By keith hughes (195.92.67.74 - 195.92.67.74) on Monday, July 22, 2002 - 08:30 pm:

Harry

I think you know what I'm going to say with regard to the question "What to do next ...", but I'll say it anyway.

Digitise it. (In America, and possibly Britain too these days, that's "digitize"!)

There are IT experts around who would not see the task as overwhelming. despite the fact that the data are (probably and mostly) handwritten.

There are humans around (not necessarily a separate category from the above) who would see this as a valuable, enjoyable project.

Find someone who fits into both categories!

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 08:50 pm:

Does anyone have any of these box sets that Harry W has mentioned? and what sort of info on recording detail do they contain?

By Ritchie (62.254.0.6 - 62.254.0.6) on Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 10:55 pm:

I have the Temptations' Emperors Of Soul set. The detail in the booklet - more like a book actually - is quite superb. Recording dates where available, musician credits, release dates etc. Just about everything you could ask for, short of the colour of Jamerson's socks on the day!

By LeVan45789 (67.116.253.234 - 67.116.253.234) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 01:19 am:

Soulboy I have all of the box sets that Harry has mentioned. And like Ritchie said they are very
detailed with recording dates, musician credits
etc. So for the Motown fan it is great!

By Bob Olhsson (68.32.101.228 - 68.32.101.228) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 01:57 pm:

Faye Hale was the head of production in 1965 which meant manufacturing or replication. I'm pretty sure her duties had been more extensive when the company was smaller.

Those logs sound like the studio schedule. which was circulated to engineering, quality control, the tape library, A&R and security. They wouldn't include engineers because we were assigned to shifts rather than projects.

There were also logs kept by the engineers of what was accomplished although again it would have been organized by song title and artist with no mention of musicians or singers.

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 02:29 pm:

Ritchie/Levan
Thanks for that,i am going to have start shelling out big bucks on these box sets. as it happens my CD collection could do with a boost.
What this thread has shown time and time again, is that there IS a demand this sort of info.

By John Lester (213.122.201.246 - 213.122.201.246) on Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 07:27 pm:

Soulboy

Start off with Cellarful of Motown.....released in usa on July 30 and already available in the UK

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 01:54 pm:

John
Thanks for the advice,but i have already bought that one. in fact it's inspired my interest in this topic. As a matter of interest How did you get your name on that anyway??

By HW (12.110.192.128 - 12.110.192.128) on Thursday, July 25, 2002 - 04:57 pm:

Cellarful was a collaborative effort between the UK and US, and John Lester suggested several tracks as well as provide pertinent information... and keep us inspired to keep at it.

By John Lester (213.1.136.133 - 213.1.136.133) on Friday, July 26, 2002 - 03:34 pm:

References to inspired should really be .."he moans..."

Naaahh, I was the one that made the tea!

LOLOL

By soulboy (213.105.242.198 - 213.105.242.198) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 11:46 am:

John

I'd be willing to be the teaboy, janitor, pizza delivery boy, anything, just to have my name on a motown record.

By John Lester (213.122.202.48 - 213.122.202.48) on Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 12:36 pm:

That is so indicative of how highly us fans think of the music that many of the participants on this forum gave to us.

It's not only a pleasure for me, it's an honour.