The Supremes Ed Sullivan May 1967

[sup_fan]

The story goes that Berry Gordy wanted to present the Supremes at the Copacabana without Florence Ballard. But Jules Podell, the owner of the Copa, insisted that the original lineup perform. He believed that having all three original Supremes would attract a larger crowd. He thought that fans would notice the replacement and might be less likely to purchase tickets if Flo was absent.

There are a few stories about this 1967 event. I guess we can pick any one of them. To me, this is the one I believe. Most people did not mess with Jules

i believe that story is in reference to the winter 66 performance there.

to some degree, i get it. I don't think Podell really cared all that much about Flo. it was more about inconsistencies in the group lineup. if they're constantly bringing in subs, something is wrong with the group and people will be less likely to want to see them. If the group membership is A, B and C, that's who podell wants. not some random singer in lieu of C. Podell didn't apparently care when Cindy was an OFFICIAL supreme and Flo was gone.

[sup_fan]

Not to mention that "Nobody" probably should have been retired by 1967/1968/1969. It had been in the act since 1965 [[?); that and some of the MOR tunes [[like MORE) should have been updated with the new group/look.

i think they mostly kept that in for sentimental reasons. that was one of their first "blockbuster" MOR songs. and sort of their signature tune. most of the other MOR stuff cycled in and out. except Somewhere.

i do TOTALLY agree none of the DRATS material should have been unearthed for their 1972 and 73 shows!

[Ollie9]

Flo herself admitted to having a few drinks before that infamous show.

She was clearly angry about something as she reportedly pushed her way back to the dressing room after the performance. Personally, i think she sensed it was all over prior to going on stage. It certainly doesn’t sound like the behaviour of someone who just prior had lay on the bed in her dressing room worrying if she was in or out of the group.

[blackguy69]

If I’m correct she saw the tuxedo outfit made for Cindy and she blew up

She was clearly angry about something as she reportedly pushed her way back to the dressing room after the performance. Personally, i think she sensed it was all over prior to going on stage. It certainly doesn’t sound like the behaviour of someone who just prior had lay on the bed in her dressing room worrying if she was in or out of the group.

[floyjoy678]

Flo and Mary's account is Flo went on stage drunk and stuck her stomach out. This infuriated Gordy. He told her either that night or the next morning she was fired. Flo was told by Gwen Gordy to stay and fight for her place because she still had a contract. But Flo had enough and left.

It sounds like she was tired and gave up. All the other things [[the fourth tuxedo, the fight in the dressing room afterwards, etc) are all speculation.

[RanRan79]

She was clearly angry about something as she reportedly pushed her way back to the dressing room after the performance. Personally, i think she sensed it was all over prior to going on stage. It certainly doesn’t sound like the behaviour of someone who just prior had lay on the bed in her dressing room worrying if she was in or out of the group.

It's been my experience that angering someone drunk is an easy thing to do. If she went on stage pissed about a comment regarding her weight, I would think by the end of the show the pissed-offness probably wouldn't have worn off. She also may have had a bit of anger at herself, knowing that she had just gone on stage and done the unthinkable. But according to Flo, before the show, the Supremes always had drinks. I suspect Flo just ended up getting a bit carried away with her portion.

[Ollie9]

It's been my experience that angering someone drunk is an easy thing to do. If she went on stage pissed about a comment regarding her weight, I would think by the end of the show the pissed-offness probably wouldn't have worn off. She also may have had a bit of anger at herself, knowing that she had just gone on stage and done the unthinkable. But according to Flo, before the show, the Supremes always had drinks. I suspect Flo just ended up getting a bit carried away with her portion.

The review of that particular performance was complimentary of all three women. If Flo really had been that inebriated, you would imagine they would have at least noticed something not quite right.
I think Flo sticking her stomach out was likely something new she intended to incorporate into the act. I guess in hindsight she most probably should have mentioned it to somebody first, but with her one-liners being such a huge success got carried away in her enthusiasm.
She certainly paid a high price.

[sup_fan]

The review of that particular performance was complimentary of all three women. If Flo really had been that inebriated, you would imagine they would have at least noticed something not quite right.
I think Flo sticking her stomach out was likely something new she intended to incorporate into the act. I guess in hindsight she most probably should have mentioned it to somebody first, but with her one-liners being such a huge success got carried away in her enthusiasm.
She certainly paid a high price.

somewhere i thought we've seen a review of their gig their but i'm not sure if it was this particular night. i think they were on night #4 of their 2 week gig when it all fell apart. i thought the review was for opening night. but not sure

[Ollie9]

somewhere i thought we've seen a review of their gig their but i'm not sure if it was this particular night. i think they were on night #4 of their 2 week gig when it all fell apart. i thought the review was for opening night. but not sure

No, it was definitely for that performance. Can anyone find it?.

[floyjoy678]

So is there a possibility now that the group never was billed as Diana Ross and the Supremes until well after Florence officially left?

I don't buy that the name change set her off during that engagement. It's been said that they all knew the name change was coming.

[milven]

Before the name changed officially, there was a billboard in front of a Vegas casino or hotel that said "THE SUPREMES featuring Diana Ross". Cant find it now, but picture was either in a book or on line, so yes, the name change was probably no surprise to anyone

[floyjoy678]

Milven I actually just did a search and found a picture of the marquee for the 1967 appearance and it looks like they were still being billed as The Supremes.

I've seen pictures of them being billed as The Supremes with Diana Ross in AC. Is that what you're thinking of?

So it looks like the official name change didn't happen until Reflections was released.

[Ollie9]

The billing of the Supremes as with Diana Ross is when Cindy first joined the group and the company were still undecided about how to present Diana’s name.
I have never seen proof that there was not some kind of name change on the night Flo stuck her stomach out.

[sup_fan]

Milven I actually just did a search and found a picture of the marquee for the 1967 appearance and it looks like they were still being billed as The Supremes.

I've seen pictures of them being billed as The Supremes with Diana Ross in AC. Is that what you're thinking of?

So it looks like the official name change didn't happen until Reflections was released.

yes - i believe Randy had a pic in his last Diana book and it was at the Steel Pier. he also mentioned that Gordy wasn't 100% of exactly how they wanted the billing to read. until they eventually settled on DRATS

this doesn't necessary mean that AC appearance was the FIRST time the marquee read that. it's possible during the Vegas run that the marquee was updated. i'm not sure

[bradsupremes]

So is there a possibility now that the group never was billed as Diana Ross and the Supremes until well after Florence officially left?

I don't buy that the name change set her off during that engagement. It's been said that they all knew the name change was coming.

Correct. They were still billed as "The Supremes" when Florence was fired. When Mary passed away, Vintage Las Vegas on Twitter posted the photo below of the Flamingo marquee dated July 1967.

So for a brief few weeks, Cindy was a member when they were still "The Supremes." Over the course of the summer, they would be billed a few different ways at various venues as the name change hadn't caught on or their contracts for venue appearances were signed before the name change.

[milven]

Yes, I just saw those pictures of them at Atlantic City with that billing. I cant find a picture of them at the Flamingo with the billing. We did discuss this in 2019 and did not come up with a conclusion. Here is the link, but read it at your own risk. It is back in the day when we still had posters who insulted other posters

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...y-as-a-Supreme

Also, on the Supremes Timeline that was so fastidiously put together by one of our members, it mentions the billing at the Flamingo with a caveat.

June 29-July 19
Engagement at the Flamingo Hotel in Las Vegas [[dinner show at 8:15 p.m. and late show at midnight). The Supremes were wearing tuxedos for their opening numbers.
Florence Ballard is fired the day after her birthday, so after the first show of July 1st, to the contrary of some sources that states Florence Ballard did only the first show on opening night; [[the second show of the evening of July 1st and the rest of the engagement are performed by Cindy Birdsong). Florence is definitely dismissed.
The marquee on the hotel stated “The Supremes with Diana Ross” according to J. Randy Taraborrelli, but it was “Diana Ross & the Supremes” according to Nelson George and Mark Ribowsky.
Note: the marquee for their engagement at the Steel Pier in August 13 to 19 was "The Supremes with Diana Ross" [[see pictures below), so it was most probably the same for this engagement at the Flamingo.
Engagement erroneously dated June 28-July 19 in Mary Wilson “Dreamgirl”, Mark Ribowsky “The Supremes A Saga…” [[p.290) and J. Randy Taraborrelli “Diana Ross: The Unauthorized Biography” [[p.165 & 167). Erroneously extended to July 20 in Nelson George "Where Did Our Love Go?”.

http://dianarosssupremes.free.fr/Timeline%201967.htm

The show may have been reviewed in the July 26, 1967 BillBoard but I couldnt find it Maybe the review mentions the new billing.

[sup_fan]

i scrolled through the online version of Billboard for all the July issues and didn't see anything about the Flamingo run - no reviews, no photos. of course i could have missed it

[thanxal]

Here is the link, but read it at your own risk. It is back in the day when we still had posters who insulted other posters

Those were sad days.

[Ollie9]

Yes, I just saw those pictures of them at Atlantic City with that billing. I cant find a picture of them at the Flamingo with the billing. We did discuss this in 2019 and did not come up with a conclusion. Here is the link, but read it at your own risk. It is back in the day when we still had posters who insulted other posters

https://soulfuldetroit.com/showthrea...y-as-a-Supreme

Also, on the Supremes Timeline that was so fastidiously put together by one of our members, it mentions the billing at the Flamingo with a caveat.

June 29-July 19
Engagement at the Flamingo Hotel in Las Vegas [[dinner show at 8:15 p.m. and late show at midnight). The Supremes were wearing tuxedos for their opening numbers.
Florence Ballard is fired the day after her birthday, so after the first show of July 1st, to the contrary of some sources that states Florence Ballard did only the first show on opening night; [[the second show of the evening of July 1st and the rest of the engagement are performed by Cindy Birdsong). Florence is definitely dismissed.
The marquee on the hotel stated “The Supremes with Diana Ross” according to J. Randy Taraborrelli, but it was “Diana Ross & the Supremes” according to Nelson George and Mark Ribowsky.
Note: the marquee for their engagement at the Steel Pier in August 13 to 19 was "The Supremes with Diana Ross" [[see pictures below), so it was most probably the same for this engagement at the Flamingo.
Engagement erroneously dated June 28-July 19 in Mary Wilson “Dreamgirl”, Mark Ribowsky “The Supremes A Saga…” [[p.290) and J. Randy Taraborrelli “Diana Ross: The Unauthorized Biography” [[p.165 & 167). Erroneously extended to July 20 in Nelson George "Where Did Our Love Go?”.

http://dianarosssupremes.free.fr/Timeline%201967.htm

The show may have been reviewed in the July 26, 1967 BillBoard but I couldnt find it Maybe the review mentions the new billing.

Many thanks for taking the time the time to post all the info milven. I do remember reading a review of Flo’s last performance, but I guess it’s no longer available.
Like you, on the night of Flo’s firing I’m guessing the marquee read “The Supremes with Diana Ross”.

[floyjoy678]

Thanks for posting that photo Brad, that's the one I found.

Well there you have it: Flo never performed with The Supremes with Diana Ross, Diana Ross and the Supremes, etc as she said in an interview a year later.

I'm going to bet that the single release of Reflections a few weeks later was the debut of the name change.

[milven]

...I'm going to bet that the single release of Reflections a few weeks later was the debut of the name change.

And the picture change too when the LP was released. For a short time, the cover included Flo along with Mary and Diana. But then they changed the cover eliminating Flo.

[floyjoy678]

I read some old article from the UK dated in August of 1967 and it seems like they got some backlash on the name change.

Some quotes from the article are: "I do not automatically think of Diana when I think of the Supremes as say with Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones" and they are quoted saying "its an unnecessary step for the group to take". Ouch.

[Ollie9]

Thanks for posting that photo Brad, that's the one I found.

Well there you have it: Flo never performed with The Supremes with Diana Ross, Diana Ross and the Supremes, etc as she said in an interview a year later.

I'm going to bet that the single release of Reflections a few weeks later was the debut of the name change.

Considering the well documented events of Flo’s final performance, it’s not, impossible the billing was changed back at a slightly later date, perhaps owing to contractual reasons when the original booking was made.

[RanRan79]

Those were sad days.

They really were, but they didn't have to be. We could have had some great discussions- and we often did- except somewhere along the way things would get derailed. Fingers were always pointed at Marv, but it was never only him. I don't think I ever jump started a derailment, but I know I joined in sometimes. Such a pity. It's my understanding that the forum used to have actual Motowners [[and Motown adjacent lol) popping in from time to time until things got completely out of control. Wish I had been here for those days.

[RanRan79]

I read some old article from the UK dated in August of 1967 and it seems like they got some backlash on the name change.

Some quotes from the article are: "I do not automatically think of Diana when I think of the Supremes as say with Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones" and they are quoted saying "its an unnecessary step for the group to take". Ouch.

I would think that was to be expected. The myth that the Supremes were Diana Ross was not how the public viewed them. She was one third of a unit and people don't like change, especially if the change makes one girl look like a spotlight hog or seems unfair to the other two. But Diana's star quality could not be denied. Ultimately, as long as the group was still releasing quality music, all was forgiven.

I'll tell you one thing, say what you will about Florence and her faults, the group and Gordy should have been thanking the Lord that, however she felt about what went down, that she wasn't bitter enough to go to the press with all the stories we now know about the behind the scenes shenanigans. While that day wasn't as tabloid driven as media would eventually become, make no mistake, they would have jumped all over that story and it really could have done damage to the group going forward, and especially to Diana's solo plans.

[sup_fan]

I would think that was to be expected. The myth that the Supremes were Diana Ross was not how the public viewed them. She was one third of a unit and people don't like change, especially if the change makes one girl look like a spotlight hog or seems unfair to the other two. But Diana's star quality could not be denied. Ultimately, as long as the group was still releasing quality music, all was forgiven.

I'll tell you one thing, say what you will about Florence and her faults, the group and Gordy should have been thanking the Lord that, however she felt about what went down, that she wasn't bitter enough to go to the press with all the stories we now know about the behind the scenes shenanigans. While that day wasn't as tabloid driven as media would eventually become, make no mistake, they would have jumped all over that story and it really could have done damage to the group going forward, and especially to Diana's solo plans.

but what would she have gone to them with? "Diana ross is mean?" "Berry and Diana are sleeping together?"

if she had, it would have also shined a light on her alcoholism which was a pretty taboo topic. the fact that she was missing from various group engagements frankly looked more poorly on her. people would have said "ok fine - Diana is mean. but what excuse do you have for not working like you were asked to?"

and of course there's Tony's claim that Flo was going to go to the press and Tommy stopped her lol

[marybrewster]

but what would she have gone to them with? "Diana ross is mean?" "Berry and Diana are sleeping together?"

if she had, it would have also shined a light on her alcoholism which was a pretty taboo topic. the fact that she was missing from various group engagements frankly looked more poorly on her. people would have said "ok fine - Diana is mean. but what excuse do you have for not working like you were asked to?"

and of course there's Tony's claim that Flo was going to go to the press and Tommy stopped her lol

Might be bold to say Flo suffered from alcoholism. Was she ever medically diagnosed? Not trying to stir the pot or ruffle your feathers, but how many documented examples are there of Flo being drunk? 5? 10? I've been drunk ten times that amount and I'm far from an alcoholic.

[RanRan79]

but what would she have gone to them with? "Diana ross is mean?" "Berry and Diana are sleeping together?"

if she had, it would have also shined a light on her alcoholism which was a pretty taboo topic. the fact that she was missing from various group engagements frankly looked more poorly on her. people would have said "ok fine - Diana is mean. but what excuse do you have for not working like you were asked to?"

and of course there's Tony's claim that Flo was going to go to the press and Tommy stopped her lol

I've said before that I think one reason Flo might have kept quiet was because her drinking could be brought up in retaliation. It was taboo at the time, so that would have been something that might scare her.

Flo could have gone to them with all the stuff we've read about in Dreamgirl, CHMR, Lost Supreme, and other tomes. Those stories do not just say "Diana is mean", although even that accusation could've been damaging since Diana's public persona was one of a giddy girl trying to make it big. Diana would have died if it had gotten out that she was sleeping with the married Smokey and Brian Holland. She could have very well painted a picture of a coupled up Berry and Diana, ganging up on her. Back then, just like now, the public doesn't care if it's true. As long as it's printed as truth, it's worth believing.

The Supremes really were America's sweethearts. Their public image was intricately crafted and heavily guarded, as not only were they the nation's "sweethearts", but they were also representing the Black community. They had to toe a public line, and to an extent, a private one too, hence why Gordy flipped his lid when he learned Mary was having mirrors installed above her bed. Sex, drugs and rock and roll was not supposed to apply to the Supremes. It could have been damaging for the world to find out those girls were less than perfect during a time when Black women in particular had to be careful with public image.

Flo could have done some lethal damage. Could the group have recovered? Maybe. But I have to believe they breathed a sigh of relief when Flo's solo career kicked off and she was doing interviews that showcased that her Motown training in PR was still very much a part of her and her approach to doing her job. Of Berry Gordy she once said "he's a very nice man". Clearly she wasn't interested in destroying them.

[floyjoy678]

Might be bold to say Flo suffered from alcoholism. Was she ever medically diagnosed? Not trying to stir the pot or ruffle your feathers, but how many documented examples are there of Flo being drunk? 5? 10? I've been drunk ten times that amount and I'm far from an alcoholic.

Good points Mary. I do think Flo's drinking got worse after she left the Supremes. I know she talked about how she got so drunk one night and wandered the streets and ended up getting mugged and thrown into a car.

But during the Supremes? Yeah I wouldn't say she was an alcoholic. She used booze to cope.

[Ollie9]

I've said before that I think one reason Flo might have kept quiet was because her drinking could be brought up in retaliation. It was taboo at the time, so that would have been something that might scare her.

Flo could have gone to them with all the stuff we've read about in Dreamgirl, CHMR, Lost Supreme, and other tomes. Those stories do not just say "Diana is mean", although even that accusation could've been damaging since Diana's public persona was one of a giddy girl trying to make it big. Diana would have died if it had gotten out that she was sleeping with the married Smokey and Brian Holland. She could have very well painted a picture of a coupled up Berry and Diana, ganging up on her. Back then, just like now, the public doesn't care if it's true. As long as it's printed as truth, it's worth believing.

The Supremes really were America's sweethearts. Their public image was intricately crafted and heavily guarded, as not only were they the nation's "sweethearts", but they were also representing the Black community. They had to toe a public line, and to an extent, a private one too, hence why Gordy flipped his lid when he learned Mary was having mirrors installed above her bed. Sex, drugs and rock and roll was not supposed to apply to the Supremes. It could have been damaging for the world to find out those girls were less than perfect during a time when Black women in particular had to be careful with public image.

Flo could have done some lethal damage. Could the group have recovered? Maybe. But I have to believe they breathed a sigh of relief when Flo's solo career kicked off and she was doing interviews that showcased that her Motown training in PR was still very much a part of her and her approach to doing her job. Of Berry Gordy she once said "he's a very nice man". Clearly she wasn't interested in destroying them.

Good points Ran. Flo could definitely have inflicted a lot of damage to the reputation of both Diana Ross and the Supremes had she taken it into her head.